You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Strategy Forum

Hop to:    
loginhomeregisterhelprules
Bottom
Topic Subject: Srategy Forum is Dying
« Previous Page  1 2 3 4  Next Page »
posted 08-12-02 02:19 AM EDT (US)   
I've notcied lately that the strat forum has become less and less popular. Hardly any posts are being made. Is everyone moving to the general forum or is EE in general getting old and boring.Any comments?

aka

Manfred Von Richtofen II

Replies:
posted 08-21-02 11:34 AM EDT (US)     51 / 88  
I dont need to convince anyone cause a descent player can do it routinely. Hell I just did it for kicks against the comp on 1v1, and got over 39900 units of resources, and 119 citizens, with the setting I described.

>then why post that, all your post says is "i'm right your wrong"

Well, cause its true.

>but that's if you have them from the start, it takes a while to get those 120 cits

ya no kidding. Thats why the formula I used is (120+5)/2 x 40 minutes x rate and not 120 x 40 minutes x rate to give you the total gathered. I hope you realize thats the way to calculate the area of a trapezoid, that is starting at 5 citizens and a steady increase (linear) in villagers. As you noticed its 96000 (actually according to my calculation 74880) if you had those 120 citizens near at the start. So if you realize this I find it hard to believe you cant see how what I said is more then reasonable. Unless you dont know how to calculate integrals or simply the area of a trapezoid. In reality really good players can ramp up better then linearly (I hope you know what that means), that is they can get those 120 citizens before 40 minutes with a near parabolic increase rather then a steady linear increase in citizens, and can approach closer to that 74000 units gathered, the faster they can get those 120 citizens.

>so it takes a little bit to do it just in DM with 20 cits,
>there's no way in hell you're going to convince anyone
>that it can be done in tourn low with 5 cits in time to
>get 39000 resources in the first 40 minutes

Like I said believe if you wish. You're just fooling yourself to deny it. DM doesnt change the gather rates. Except with 20 citizens start (that is (120+20)/2 x 40 minutes x rate) you should be able to get 43000 units, on average. and the main army is built in beginning rather then at the end game.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 11:47 AM).]

posted 08-21-02 11:45 AM EDT (US)     52 / 88  
"I dont need to convince anyone cause a descent player can do it routinely. Hell I just did it for kicks against the comp on 1v1, and got over 39900 units of resources, and 119 citizens, with the setting I described."

"i'm right your wrong"

"Well, cause its true."

hopeless folks

"ya no kidding. Thats why the formula I used is (120+5)/2 x 40 minutes x rate and not 120 x 40 minutes x rate. I hope you realize thats the way to calculate the area of a trapezoid, that is starting at 5 citizens and a steady increase (linear) in villagers, which is the gives you the total gathered. As you noticed its 96000 (actually according to my calculation 74880) if you had those 120 citizens near at the start. Like I said really good players can ramp up better then linearly (I hope you know what that means)."

yeah and needing to have military as well means it's even more impossible

you say it's possible yet your not proving it(120+5? wtf?)

"Like I said believe if you wish. You're just fooling yourself to deny it. DM doesnt change the gather rates. Except with 20 citizens start (that is (120+20)/2 x 40 minutes x rate) you should be able to get 43000 units, on average. and the main army is built in beginning rather then at the end game."

you mean 43000 resources right? this proves how wrong you are

you can get those 120 much faster even if it's 5 cits, because it's DM and you have the resources to do so fast as possible

so if it were possible to get 39000 resources in 40 minutes in tournament low with 5 cits, then it would be possible to get way more than 43000 in DM with 20 cits


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 12:05 PM EDT (US)     53 / 88  
>hopeless folks

yes quite hopeless from the looks of it.

>yeah and needing to have military as well means it's even >more impossible

yes impossible for some people. I realize some people just never get that good. But as far as producing a military also. I already outlined in a previous post how 39000 resources can cover all the troop and citizens and building requirements, and unless you're a math idiot, its pretty easy to see getting 39000 resources isnt at all impossible, in fact rather reasonable and expected to even be considered someone who knows the game in my opinion.

>you say it's possible yet your not proving it(120+5? wtf?)

120+5 cause you start with 5 citizens and end up with 120 citizens (which is the goal of 60% citizen pop count, at 200 pop cap limit, and ideal percentage left over from AOK days).

I think I need to explain some simple mathematics apparently. So the population line from 5 to 120 citizens form a trapezoid, you can see this easily enough at the post game stats screen (although its never a perfect trapezoid), with one side of the trapezoid at 5 and the other side at 120. The area of a trapezoid is (h1+h2)*width/2. h1 is 5, h2 is 120 , width is 40 minutes. multiply that by the gathering rate to get the volume or the total resources gathered. I dont even remember what grad I learned this stuff in, but its basic stuff. Unless you're not even finished grade school, or forgotten it all already.

>you mean 43000 resources right? this proves how wrong you are

Umm no IT proves YOU arent very good at math.

>so if it were possible to get 39000 resources in 40 >minutes in tournament low with 5 cits, then it would be >possible to get way more than 43000 in DM with 20 cits

yes it is possible except in DM you are usually going to produce military units at the start rather then at the end game like I said, at least I would hope so. If you build villagers at start then you should be able to get that 74880 figure, or specifically the earlier you start and get those 120 citizens. Its 43000 if you start with 20 citizens with tourney low resources. Again the resource setting doesnt change the gather rate, just how fast you can approach the theoretical limit of having all your citizens at the start. I am also using the gold/iron gather rate at industrial age, if I work it out exactly, with the post industrial epochs, the rates are even higher. Taking an average of the rates across all the different resources at all the other epoch gather rates, 50000 resources in the tourney low, tourney mode, 5 citizens start is doable.

Anyways the numbers are there, the math is there, the references (resource links and players) are there. Even screen shots of the stats screens from a play test is there. Believe or not its up to you.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 01:05 PM).]

posted 08-21-02 12:54 PM EDT (US)     54 / 88  
I played a forty minute (F11 time) game to help your argument with the following settings:

Single Player Random Map
Five Citizens for Me
One Easy Opponent - One Citizen to Start
Tiny Map
Tournament - Low Resources
Single Epoch - WW1
Tournament Game Variant
Unit Limit 1200
Wonders Off
Game Speed Fast
Reveal Map On
Custom Civs On
Teams and Speed Locked
No Cheats (Of Course)

So that you can understand how good of a player I am, I also took note of how I was doing every ten minutes.

The Post-Game Statistics:
=========================
Food Gathered:
11622
--------------
Wood Gathered:
5970
--------------
Gold Gathered:
5523
--------------
Stone Gathered:
860
---------------
Iron Gathered:
5747
--------------
Total Gathered:
29722
---------------
Total Spent:
22001 (<- What do you think the extra one is?)
----------------------------------------------
=============
Game Summary:
=============
Ten Minutes Elapsed:
--------------------
20 citizens
1 Doughboy
1 Tower
1 Barracks
1 Settlement
-----------------------
Twenty Minutes Elapsed:
-----------------------
46 citizens
10 doughboys
1 tower
2 barracks
1 town center
2 fully staffed granaries
-----------------------
Thirty Minutes Elapsed:
-----------------------
77 citizens
37 doughboys
1 artillery
1 tower
2 barracks
1 seige factory
1 tank factory
1 airport
2 fully-staffed granaries
2 town centers
1 settlement
----------------------------------
Forty Minutes Elapsed (Game Over):
----------------------------------
139 citizens
47 doughboys
10 machine gunners
6 artillery
6 ap tanks
5 gotha bombers
2 towers
2 aa guns
2 barracks
1 siege factory
1 tank factory
1 airport
3 fully-staffed granaries
5 town centers
2 settlements
--------------------------------
At the end of the game, I had many units queued up to be built, including 20 citizens, three Gotha bombers, tons of infantry, and a few tanks and seige weapons.
================================

So there it is. Keep in mind I had a slight advantage knowing where all the mines were thanks to the revealed map. The fact that three mines and a forage patch all circled a town center made gathering a little easier than usual. In this situation, I decided to focus more on my economy than usual, and the army was just there to keep me busy or in case of an attack. I was not attacked and I did not do any attacking during the forty minutes.

I don't know what to make of it.


I think I found why Sierra did what they did......

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm


[This message has been edited by introspection (edited 08-21-2002 @ 02:00 PM).]

posted 08-21-02 02:14 PM EDT (US)     55 / 88  
well as you found, you collected almost 30000 resources. I did my play test with no reveal, and took screen shots cause well no one can say i dont provide proof, but i still got 39000. So my numbers arent off base, and as I mentioned in a real game I typically manage only around 30000 myself, having to deal with attacking and defending. In a game where things are going well for me and where I get to be the pocket, I can make 39000 pretty regularly. And as I mentioned I'm around the level of the Mystics clan, and also as I said my friends are even better players then me, and routinely get 40000+ resources consistantly with a bigger army to boot. _I_ wonder how they do it, even though I know the numbers say its possible, and I dont apparently do anything particularly different as far as I can tell. If it was obvious how to get more skilled, then everyone would be an expert. What it means is that I know I still have room for improvement, and TRY to improve. Unlike some people, I aint going to bury my head in the sand thinking no possible way anyone can do better cause I cant do better when someone says and shows its clearly possible to do so. This is one of the reasons some people never really get better at playing (its basic psychology, if you dont think its possible you're never going to be able to do it, conversely its like how they train weightlifters to pick up greater weights by telling them the weight they are holding is less then the actual, but something they believe they can lift), the other reason people dont improve is of course like anything else a matter of talent. Which as I am embarrassed to admit is what is limiting me from breaking past the inters level. Hehe just thought how ironic, the title of this thread is why the strategy forum is dieing.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 03:55 PM).]

posted 08-21-02 06:34 PM EDT (US)     56 / 88  
Interesting sidenote: I've noticed a big differance in the Strategy Forums since I joined the local gym.

Probably just coinsidance, but doubtless kinda funny.

posted 08-21-02 09:18 PM EDT (US)     57 / 88  
way to post those "screen shots", watch folks he's now going to animate some "screen shots" and post them

Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-22-02 05:24 AM EDT (US)     58 / 88  
>watch folks he's now going to animate some "screen shots" and post them

what do you mean by that? but if you mean share the benefits of my test to improve the skill level of fellow EE players, I am more then happy to.

hehe but what really crack me up is you think you have a leg to stand on with this argument. introspection already posted his results, and he got 30000 units, which as I said already exceeds the resource requirements I said. I think you're really in denial buddy. Somehow I dont think any amount of evidence will convince you. Half a dozen oithe people could post their results and play against you and get the resources I said is possible, and I bet you would just accuse them of cheating cause it doesnt fit with your perception of reality. Not really sure why you're so determined to remain mediocre.

But just to humour you, and cause this IS the strategy forum, and other may benefit to know that a good economy is possible. Although, its really not that impressive to collect 39000 units of resources, anyone half descent in the game should be able to do it. anyways here's the link explicitly. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/ratbert1009ca
Read em and weep my friend. This test was 1v1 very fast speed, WW1 epoch only, giant map. using USA civ. tourney low, tourney variant. 5 citizen start. stopped at 40 minutes 53 seconds f11 time with 55000 resources gathered, 89 military units (1 hero, about 25 tanks, half dozen bombers and half dozen fighters, a dozen AT guns, 10 flak tracks, 30 mixed infantry of mortars, machine guns, doughboys, with more queued), 153 citizens (with more queued) at the end. Spent about 40000, which doubles the 20000 required to build 20 bombers and 30 hyperions (if I was in the digital age, which I did another test after and got even higher total gathered of 67000 resources in 40 minutes, with rebel forces) that I mentioned before. Hehe I actually managed to reach my numbers that I calculated using more accurate average gathering rates, instead of the lower iron/gold gather rate! See folx, once you know from theory that its possible, your mind opens up and it allows you to reach that theoretical target!

Actually I think I have to thank Anarchy now, cause before I didnt know 55000 was possible (at least notpossible for me to reach) or 67000 for that matter , seems each time I try I get better, cause I never actually bothered to work out the numbers and always seem to only gather about 30000-40000, maybe now I finally broke past the inters level. Yipee!

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-22-2002 @ 01:57 PM).]

posted 08-22-02 06:19 AM EDT (US)     59 / 88  
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

YOU GUYS ARE REALLY GOIN AT IT NOW

JERRY JERRY JERRY


aka

Manfred Von Richtofen II

posted 08-22-02 07:05 AM EDT (US)     60 / 88  
Uh oh!
I better make this thread even more off topic then it already is!

Are you scared of clowns that rape people?

posted 08-22-02 07:23 AM EDT (US)     61 / 88  
Hehe ya well I guess I should be talking about why the strategy forum is dying, and instead write an actual article for the strategies Library under the Economy section, there isnt any articles in that section actually, so it could use a good article on general economy management in EE. Just never thought what Ive been saying in this thread was all that revolutionary and cause I didnt think getting 39000 resources in 40 minutes was all that good, but apparently its super human to some people.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-22-2002 @ 07:46 AM).]

posted 08-22-02 04:53 PM EDT (US)     62 / 88  
Ok whatever.. When will your bragging stop?

Wow, you have won the argument... BIG DEAL! It doesn't make you better then any one else on this forum. To me it looks like your trying to cross a line that shouldn’t be crossed: making this argument personal...

posted 08-22-02 05:37 PM EDT (US)     63 / 88  
"what do you mean by that? but if you mean share the benefits of my test to improve the skill level of fellow EE players, I am more then happy to."

how the [ucking hell sound deleted] do you extract "share the benefits of my test to improve the skill level of fellow EE players" from "animate some screen shots"?

please tell me your not related to karmacommunist from SPSW

""hehe but what really crack me up is you think you have a leg to stand on with this argument. introspection already posted his results, and he got 30000 units, which as I said already exceeds the resource requirements I said. I think you're really in denial buddy.""

1.29000 not 30000

2.29000 not 39000

29000 i can believe, if a person is a really good player

but of course unlike you said that means you can gather way more than 43000 in DM

""But just to humour you, and cause this IS the strategy forum, and other may benefit to know that a good economy is possible. Although, its really not that impressive to collect 39000 units of resources, anyone half descent in the game should be able to do it. anyways here's the link explicitly. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/ratbert1009ca ""

aww how cute he created a new pic

the kicker here folks is that he gathered almost as much as the super cheating AI, which as we know is not possible in the slightest

posted 08-22-02 06:09 PM EDT (US)     64 / 88  
>29000 not 30000

well excuse me! 1000 difference. He could get that in another minute. Not really significant in a 40 minute time frame.

> 29000 not 39000

Yes and that means what? 29000 is already good enough to do what I said albe with difficulty, unless you balance your resources just right. I dont know what skill level introspection is, but I would say he has potential to match my numbers.

>29000 i can believe, if a person is a really good player

Well seeing most of the players on EE multiplay now arent that great as most of the experts have left. I guess you may get the impression 29000 is all you can get. Of course if like I said all you play are settings that attracts newbs and rooks, the best you'll see is some low inters who seem to get 29000 and seem impressive. the descent clans like SRW can easily beat 30000 resources, at least from the times Ive played them.

>how the [ucking hell sound deleted] do you extract "share
>the benefits of my test to improve the skill level of
>fellow EE players" from "animate some screen shots"?

1st it seems apparent you are somehow under the illusion that its not possible to get the resources I calculated. So the prove is shown to you in plain graphics.

2nd if I have more time, I may consider writing an article on the build order, although, I did it not so much by a specific build order but by following general principles, and a lot of fast mouse and keyboard work.

This is a booming strategy so, I dont build a rush force.
Basically I go hevy on pumpkins and hunting at the start, 1 guy on wood till I get enough for a settlement, then peel him off to do gold or iron, build guys on wood, till I get enough for a second settlement on the opposite metal. Build guys on wood, still I get enough for a farm, and 8 guys on wood, peel the 8 off and build a farm. At anytime I get enough food to queue more then 4 guys I garrison and make a TC, pump citizens out of both TC's. This should happen before 8 minutes. Anytime I can queue more the 3 guys on each TC, I garrison an make another TC. and continuously pump citizens on to resources, as I get 300-400 wood built up and 8 citzens I build a farm. Get about 4-5 sets of farms. Should also have 2-3 TC's on iron and gold each. Constantly building citizens in every TC. When I see a bunch of citizens on wood I grab 8 and garrison the granaries. Spread out as soon as I see a resource and start mining it. At about 15-20 minutes, I mass build some military buildings, and pump out some military units, just as with citizens continously pump out military units, use all resources that you can, dont save it unless for epoching, or for econ upgrades. Simple as that.

The later epochs also allows more resources to be gathered. But in WW1 and on you should be able to get 50000, 40000 without any difficulty. 60000 if you really try, but I suspect only consistantly possible in digital age and on. 70000 if you're lucky. Like I said if you can concentrate hard enough to build citizens exponentially and not make any mistakes like leaving citizens idle or whatever. Earlier epochs may not net you as much I have to try it out and see, but I suspect, since the gather rates are around 10%less then the later epochs, 35000 should be easy, 45000 should be normal, 55000 if you try hard, etc. Basically anytime after copper you should be able to get numbers pretty close to what I said, cause farming is the key. The ages before, will decrease your yield significantly, since you can only hunt and they run out after one epoch, two if you're really careful. Either way cause you cant farm, you're not going to be able to produce as many food and thus not as many citizens quickly and that affects all the other resource gathering.

>please tell me your not related to karmacommunist from SPSW

No. I dont even know him/her.

>the kicker here folks is that he gathered almost as much
>as the super cheating AI, which as we know is not possible
>in the slightest

Actually it looks like the AI always gets more resources then you do, and gets resources linked to what you get to give you a challenging game, no matter how fast you are. Because everytime I tested it, it seems to get just a bit more then I do. When I got 55000 resources it also got a but more then me, and even when I got 67000 resources, again it got a bit more then me. But like I said no matter what evidence you're not going to believe it.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-22-2002 @ 06:48 PM).]

posted 08-22-02 06:46 PM EDT (US)     65 / 88  
>To me it looks like your trying to cross a line that >shouldn’t be crossed: making this argument personal

Well he's accusing me of lieing. Which I wont tolerate.

I'm willing to play him if he wants. But somehow he seems like the type to accuse people of cheating just cause that person can play at a level far above him. So if someone like Ueriah, SAS_Soldier, any SRW's or the top clans wanna test out how many resources they can get in 40 minutes. All of whom from what I can tell should be able to match my numbers or better it.

PS: Actually thanks Introspection for testing it out and posting your results.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-22-2002 @ 06:52 PM).]

posted 08-22-02 06:55 PM EDT (US)     66 / 88  
dude your doing more damage to yourself than i am:

"Yes and that means what? 29000 is already good enough to do what I said albe with difficulty and requires luck in getting balanced resources. Just means Introspection still has some room for improvement."

babble babble babble, prove it

"Well seeing most of the players on EE multiplay now arent that great as most of the experts have left. I guess you may get the impression 29000 is all you can get. Of course if like I said all you play are settings that attracts newbs and rooks, the best you'll see is some low inters who seem to get 29000 and seem impressive. the descent clans like SRW can easily beat 30000 resources, at least from the times Ive played them."

your grasping at straws, your not showing any proof

"1st it seems apparent you are somehow under the illusion that its not possible to get the resources I calculated. So the prove is shown to you in plain graphics."

1st that's not an illusion that's common sense, and that proof was created by you

you think you're the first to create artificial screenshots? your not

"2nd if I have more time, I may consider writing an article on the build order, although, I did it not so much by a specific build order but by following general principles, and a lot of fast mouse and keyboard work."

2nd it appears you do have the time with everything your making, and the artificial screenshots

"No. I dont even know him/her."

well you were speaking the exact gibberish he used to for a second

it's called an amazingly bad analogy, an example would be:

"you can teach a dog to do tricks, so you can teach a potato to dance"

in your case it was:

"artificial screenshots mean that i'm sharing the benefits of my test"

"Actually it looks like the AI always gets more resources then you do, and gets resources linked to what you get to give you a challenging game, no matter how fast you are. Because everytime I tested it, it seems to get just a bit more then I do. When I got 55000 resources it also got a but more then me, and even when I got 67000 resources, again it got a bit more then me. But like I said no matter what evidence you're not going to believe it."

your avoiding the issue, everyone knows the AI gets gathering bonuses

and you haven't shown me any evidence, unless you mean evidence that you're wrong

that you have shown me

"Well he's accusing me of lieing. Which I wont tolerate."

well it's not my fault that you proved it, i'm just exploiting the facts here

"I'm willing to play him if he wants. But somehow he seems like the type to accuse people of cheating just cause that person can play at a level far above him. So if someone like Ueriah, SAS_Soldier, any SRW's or the top clans wanna test out how many resources they can get in 40 minutes. All of whom from what I can tell should be able to match my numbers or better it."

okay i kept from saying it before but now it's kind of obvious

simply put your retarded, i never said you were a cheater and i'm sure those people would say what a lier you are

[This message has been edited by Anarchy_Balsac1 (edited 08-22-2002 @ 06:59 PM).]

posted 08-22-02 07:08 PM EDT (US)     67 / 88  
>dude your doing more damage to yourself than i am:

Heh, like how like how you dont even understand simple mathematics? or like you making statements and accusations without any proof? You really like to show your ignorance dont you?

I know I brag a bit, but everything I say I back with proof. You can believe it or not. Again thats up to you, and as I said I invite you to name whatever proof you like, or ask any of the top clans to volunteer to test out the numbers. I put my money where my mouth is. All I see you doing is make statements based on nothing more then your limited views and poor mathematical abilities .

The mathematical proof shouldve been enough. Those numbers were from MFO, so you can believe them or not. But apparently you didnt understand the math beyond simple multiplication, even though I explained the calculations. I aint going to be your private math tutor. I cant help it you cant understand the math or prove it any more better. Anyone who understands calculus should be able to figure this out for themselves.

>that's not an illusion that's common sense,

Common sense? more like lack of knowledge.

>and that proof was created by you

Boy you're in deep denial.

>you think you're the first to create artificial >screenshots? your not

LOL whatever. You seen the screen shots. Take it for what its worth, you think I made it up, then thats your perogative. The truth is the truth. Of course you I can also provide the saved games, and you can see for yourself. But if you dont believe the screens I dont see how anythings going convince someone with a closed mind. If you dont believe facts thats your problem. What I wonder is why are you in such denial?

I'll play you any time under any circumstance.

>your avoiding the issue, everyone knows the AI gets
>gathering bonuses

and the issue is what? since what you're implying is an outright lie, there isnt an issue to avoid.

However, what I said is to flesh out in more precise quantities how much of a bonus the AI gets in order to challenge the player.

>your grasping at straws, your not showing any proof

You're the one grasping at straws buddy. I cant help it if you just cant face facts.


> well it's not my fault that you proved it

Definitely. I have proved not only what I calculated is possible, but demonstrated several times that its is possible. What you have proven is that you have poor economic skills in EE, mathematically challenged and disengenuous.

> i'm just exploiting the facts here

More like, In denial of facts.

>simply put your retarded, i never said you were a cheater
>and i'm sure those people would say what a lier you are

Simply put, you dont know what the heck you're talking about.

LOL, you're already distorting what I said, and refuse to recognize proof when he sees it, so I think I would be pretty sure thats the kind of stuff you'd pull. so ya well I am sure if you ever play against me, and I do exactly what I said is possible you'd call me a cheater. Mediocre players who are poor sports always do that. The only one lieing here is you, you're trying to keep people from realizing how powerful they can actually get their economy to be, for some unknown reason.

Like I said, dont take my word for it, just ask any of the expert clans to play test it for you.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-23-2002 @ 00:06 AM).]

posted 08-23-02 01:15 AM EDT (US)     68 / 88  
"Heh, like how"

here's how:

"I am not worried about anyone believing it, cause its fact. I'm more embarassed that after playing EE from the start, I'm still stuck at inters level, and usually manage to average ONLY 30000 units of resources, when I should be geting 39000 easy, instead I only get that when I am having a good game without making mistakes."

that then this:

"Read em and weep my friend. This test was 1v1 very fast speed, WW1 epoch only, giant map. using USA civ. tourney low, tourney variant. 5 citizen start. stopped at 40 minutes 53 seconds f11 time with 55000 resources gathered"

yeah lol your at the 30000 level then suddenly your up at 55000

and on top of that it says you gathered almost as much as the cheating AI, which as we all know is not possible

it will gather twice as much as you at least if you have even 300 cits and are extremly good

"Like I said believe if you wish. You're just fooling yourself to deny it. DM doesnt change the gather rates. Except with 20 citizens start (that is (120+20)/2 x 40 minutes x rate) you should be able to get 43000 units, on average. and the main army is built in beginning rather then at the end game."

tournament low with 5 cits you can get 39000, yet somehow DM with 20 you can only get 43000? yeah right

and BTW:

"120+5 cause you start with 5 citizens and end up with 120 citizens (which is the goal of 60% citizen pop count, at 200 pop cap limit, and ideal percentage left over from AOK days). "

ah really? i figured as much but there's no logic in that

"Heh, like how like how you dont even understand simple mathematics?"

lmao rule #18 pal, your just angry because i called you retarded

well geuss what? your acting retarded, you actually expect me to buy what your saying with the quotes i reposted above

"I know I brag a bit, but everything I say I back with proof. You can believe it or not. Again thats up to you, and as I said I invite you to name whatever proof you like, or ask any of the top clans to volunteer to test out the numbers. I put my money where my mouth is. All I see you doing is make statements based on nothing more then your limited views and poor mathematical abilities .

The mathematical proof shouldve been enough. Those numbers were from MFO, so you can believe them or not. But apparently you didnt understand the math beyond simple multiplication, even though I explained the calculations. I aint going to be your private math tutor. I cant help it you cant understand the math or prove it any more better. Anyone who understands calculus should be able to figure this out for themselves."

blah blah, the mathematical proof as you call it is a formula you made up that makes no sense at all

there's a way to determine it, but it wouldn't a formula as simple as yours(something like they teach you in physics above accelration rates and the like and how to determine distance with increasing acceleration)

"Common sense? more like lack of knowledge."

please, the only knowledge i appear to lack is just how retarded you appearantly are

"Boy you're in deep denial."

buddy your the one denying that your screenshot is artificial, for proof that your a lier read the quotes at the top of this post

"Simply put, you dont know what the heck you're talking about."

simply put, i know exactly what i'm talking about

for evidence, read the above quotes then consider the fact that you actually expect anyone to believe you after that

"LOL, you're already distorting what I said, and refuse to recognize proof when he sees it, so I think I would be pretty sure thats the kind of stuff you'd pull."

i refuse to recognize insane BS as proof, read the quotes on the top of this post again and you'll see what i'm talking about

"so ya well I am sure if you ever play against me, and I do exactly what I said is possible you'd call me a cheater. "

actually i'm pretty sure you'd suck, considering your world of delusion

sucky players like to make up stories saying they are way better than they are(like a guy who once said he beat emerald weapon in ff7 on level 43, he'd kill you in one shot on level 43)

"The only one lieing here is you, you're trying to keep people from realizing how powerful they can actually get their economy to be, for some unknown reason."

lying me? lol read the quotes on top of this post again

posted 08-23-02 01:44 AM EDT (US)     69 / 88  

Quote:

"Common sense? more like lack of knowledge."

Well Anarchy, to be fair...After reading your posts of late, you really don't seem to understand EE very much. So yea, I'd say you lack knowledge in EE.

And i've showed you like 3 or 4 times how to quote correctly, why don't you use it? It doesn't take very long to do, actually just about as much time as using " " would be.

Anyway, have fun arguing


~Soldier

posted 08-23-02 03:10 AM EDT (US)     70 / 88  
"Well Anarchy, to be fair...After reading your posts of late, you really don't seem to understand EE very much. So yea, I'd say you lack knowledge in EE."

and how is that? because you read a DM strat as RM one you say i don't know anything, buddy that's your problem not mine

posted 08-23-02 08:37 AM EDT (US)     71 / 88  

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


yeah lol your at the 30000 level then suddenly your up at 55000

Well as I said (apparently you dont remember or cant read), before this test I usually only manage to get 30000 on any consistant basis. BUT I do know on occasions I was able to get those bombers and hyperions (which upon detailed research turned out I would needed 20000 resources for just those units), and my friends routinely get 40000. So being able to gather twice the 20000 needed would be a reasonable assumption and an explaination of being able to do what I said on occasion where all the factors are right, and you dont make any mistakes.

Then when I check the gathering rates http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=634231, It clearly worked out to be able to generate that much resources based on the iron/gold gather rates alone. (As I mentioned I have a custom civ with with iron/gold bonus and cheap bombers and robots), so it is well within possibilities to be able to do exactly what I said, since those bonuses add another 15% in addition to the posted gathering rates and an additional 20% reduction to the unit cost, this is a huge factor. Which means I only would need 18000 resources, with a gathering rate of not 15.6 but 17.94. So to get the military buildup I claimed is not at all impossible. Which if you work it out, 40*17.94*(120+5)/2=44850, which for those who actually understand the game, getting those civ bonuses is better then having a 20 citizen start as far as resource gathering, in fact it is equal to about a 24 citizen start!

Since you didnt understand the math and insisted on more proof, I checked the gathering rates not just for gold/iron but for all of them, I took and average value, and found that it supports a even higher total gathering amount which turned out to be around 50000. But as I said this is even bases only on a linear increase in citizens, and if you are able to pump citizens out in all and not just one TC, and able to keep it up all game, you should be able to exceed that.

After posting the results of my calculations, I in fact tested it out with the computer opponent with the settings I posted, and verified exactly that. 1st try was 39000 when I started in imperial and epoch up 3 times, then 55000 when I started in WW1, 67000 when I started in digital. Which if you bother to look at the gathering rates posted on MFO, is totally in line with the epochs, and I guess I need to mention AGAIN, the gathering rates and thus the total gather will decrease as you start in earlier epochs. Until you go before copper, which will significant decrease that total even more because you can not build farms arbitrarily.

>and on top of that it says you gathered almost as much as
>the cheating AI, which as we all know is not possible
>it will gather twice as much as you at least if you have
>even 300 cits and are extremly good

Well I will have to do a test of the various difficulty levels, but I suspect the reason it was very close was because I set the difficulty on easy. Like I said I suspect the bonus resources the comp gets is dependent on the level of difficulty you set in the game. But that is besides the point, since it doesnt negate what I am able to gather, only how much the computer will get in addition to what I have.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


tournament low with 5 cits you can get 39000, yet somehow
DM with 20 you can only get 43000? yeah right

Well again you are showing your out right lack of math skills and inability to remember what has been said. Yes 39000 in RM, and 43000 with a 20 citizen start regardless if its DM or not if you build your citizens in late game after building an army, around 74000 resources if you got all 120 of your citizens at the beginning of the game. With 20 citizens you can build 4 TC's, it takes actually around awhile to even get 120 citizens, around 15 minutes f11 time, since it takes about 30 seconds to produce a citizen out of a TC. So 74000 is the best you could hope for, in fact less, around 16380 (for the 1st 15 minutes ie. 15.6*15*(120+20)/2) + 46800 (for the last 25 minutes ie. 120*15.6*25) =63180. I already explained how this works.

Quoted from One Dead Villy:


>120+5 cause you start with 5 citizens and end up with 120
>citizens (which is the goal of 60% citizen pop count, at
>200 pop cap limit, and ideal percentage left over from
>AOK days)."


Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


ah really? i figured as much but there's no logic in that

This is showing your clear lack of knowledge then cause 60% citizen pop cap has been arrived at by years of expert play to be the ideal percentage to create an economy sufficient to support a military that will be sufficiently large to defeat most enemies. Again you dont have to believe me, just go to the old AOK strategy forums to find out about this age old paradigm.

If you're asking why 120+5 again, please tell me you understand at least that part, cause I already explained how that works, and how to calculate areas under the time chart.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


well geuss what? your acting retarded, you actually expect me to buy what your saying with the quotes i reposted above

Actually you're the one acting retarded, by your clear demonstration of poor math skills and lack of fundamental RTS gaming knowledge. I am just acting smug if anything, and rather charitable trying to teach you some basic math.

Besides which, I dont expect you to "buy" anything I said and you shouldnt, work it out for yourself, verify with any of the experts in the game that you trust, and as many as you wish. Have them play test it, calculate it, do what ever it takes that you feel is necessary.

Quoted from One Dead Villy:


>Heh, like how like how you dont even understand simple mathematics?"


Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


your just angry because i called you retarded

Hardly. I think its abundandly clear to everyone your math skills are pretty poor. You dont even understand the trapezoidal formula, and you want to get into talking about integral calculus? The trapezoidal formula just happens to be the cornerstone of integral calculus. Before you go wtf is integral calculus, it is the mathematical basis behind Newton's formula, both of which was invented by Newton.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


the mathematical proof as you call it is a formula you
made up that makes no sense at all

No sense to you maybe. But anyone with a highschool education and half a brain in math can see that the formula is both obvious and correct.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


there's a way to determine it, but it wouldn't a formula
as simple as yours(something like they teach you in
physics above accelration rates and the like and how to
determine distance with increasing acceleration

1st its increasing speed, not increasing acceleration. Increasing speed is acceleration. I think Newtonian mechanics is quite sufficient for this case, no need to get into relativistic physics here.

In physics you dont need a formula that looks like freaking hieroglyths to be valid. In fact any formula that looks like that means they havent fully figured it all out yet. E=mc^2, is quite simple looking, even though to arrive at that its pages of calculations. The whole idea of scientific research is for some scientist to derive those pages of calculations into a simple formula, so people like you can work out the numbers.

If you actually understood calculus then it would already be obvious to you the formula I gave is the one to use. If you dont understand the trapezoid formula, I dont think explaining by using integration calculus would be any more useful.

But again I'll humour you, d=c+vt+(0.5)*at^2, thats the formula I assume you are refering to (check your physics text book if you dont believe me or go to this link http://mcasco.com/p1consta.html) d is the distance travelling at given a initial speed v (in this case v is the rate of which citizens are built per minute), and acceleration a (in this case it is the increase in citizens built per minute, so with one TC only or if you can not sustain exponential growth in citizens, there is no acceleration so a=0, if you have more then one then its roughly a=number of TC's built besides the starting capitol), and inititial position c (in this case is the number of citizens initially so c=5). Now since we want to go to 120 citizens or d=120 in 40 minutes (when t=40) we need a rate of 3 citizens per minute. This is where the skill comes in, but most people can produce 3 citizens per minute on average if they keep their concentration (and this is the problem for most people, they loose track and have idle citizens and/or not constantly building citizens). To be safe lets assume you only produce 1 citizen per minute out of each TC, so you would need 3 TC's to get 3 per minute. 3 TC's is fairly easy to get, now all you need is 150 food per minute to sustain that production. In order to get 150 food per minute, you need 150/26.52=5.6 citizens working at hunting per minute. The 26.52 is from .442 food per second from imperial age hunting and later, it improves after that. We already start out with 5 citizens and at least 150 food, so to get 5.6 lets say 6 citizens within the 1st minute or so to sustain the food production is not at all hard. Pumpkins are slightly slower and requires 8 people on that to sustain 150 food per minute. But still within the 5 plus 150 food initial requirement. But with a combination of pumpkins and hunting, since you can only have 6 on pumpkins max. Which further illustrates the importance of hunting early. Cause it saves you two citizens to do other work if you go all hunting. By the time you run out of pumpkins and hunting you can use farming which is slightly more efficient then pumpkins. Typically, one can have two TC's garrison and producing citizens with 7 minutes of the game and 3 TC's within 10 minutes of the game. This leaves you 30 minutes of constant citizen production where we can use v=3. So if subtract the amount of resources we would have gotten in the 1st 10 minutes but didnt have v=3, we would loose at most 10*15.6*(30+5)/2=2730 resource. This is from 10 minutes lost time, 30 citizens at 10 minutes if we had sustained v=3. In fact most people should be able to do better and thus acheive better then linear increase in citizens, and the number of citizens at each minute is even greater then I stated and thus would gather even more then what I said.

So the number of citizens at each given minute is d=3t+5.
Unless you're under attack and loosing the battle and getting your citizens killed, the rate of citizen production would not decellerate, and the rate of citizen production would only increase or at the very least remain constant. Meaning the numbers of citizens I am calculating is actually understated, because with accelerating citizen production I would have at least 0.5*1*t^2 more citizens per minute.

So minute 0 we have 5 citizens, the 1st minute those 5 citizens can collect at a rate of 15.6 resources for 5*15.6=78 resources total. We should be using the trapezoidal formula again for each minute but for simplisity we'll use the area of a square, which if we constantly build citizens, actually under-estimates our gathering rate. The second minute you have 8 citizens (3*2+5), so its 8*15.6=124.8, the third minute you have 14 citizens (3 times 3 + 5), or 14+15.6= 218.4 resources. As you can plainly see each minute you can collect twice as much as you did the previous minute. By the time you get to 40 minutes, that last minute you collect 1950 resources. For the 1st two minutes you get 78+124.8=202.8 resources, similarly after 1st three minutes you get a total of 78+124.8+216.4=421.2 resources etc. If you add it all up from 0 to 40 minutes. You need to add the resources gather at each minute over all 40 minutes which is 78+124.8+218.4+....+1950. If you dont have the patience and I dont, then just take the average number of resources collected per minute at the midpoint of the game, or 20 minutes which gives you 3*20+5=65 citizens, multiply that by 15.6 which gives you 15.6*65=1014 resources gather at the 20th minute of the game. Multiply that by 40 minutes of total game time giving you 1014*40=40560 resources (if we subtract the resource lost do to initial build up time as mentioned before we would have 37830 resources gathered) or If you add all that up the individually its around 40000 resources collected, either way it is what is approximately predicted in the trapezoid formula.

Just so you get some learning, this link describes the trapezoidal formula I am using.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TrapezoidalRule.html
Based on integral theory as described below:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NumericalIntegration.html
The trapezoidal rule/formula is a special case of Newton-Cotes:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Newton-CotesFormulas.html

Further more the formula predicts that the key to a winning economy is dependent on the rate of citizen creation. Which is corroberated by another age old paradigm in winning a RTS games of continuous citizen production from as many spots as possible.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


buddy your the one denying that your screenshot is
artificial, for proof that your a lier read the quotes at
the top of this post

What proof is that? You simply dont read very well. As explained the 1st attempt I got 39000, then subsequent attempts I got better at it, and got higher and higher resources. Your only "proof" comprises of muddled thinking, and distorting what people has said. I can send you or anyone the saved games if they wish to run it and see for themselves that the screen shots are genuine. I saved the 1st test at 35 minutes into the game, the second test at 10, 20 and 40 minutes into the game to show the progression. Just ask, and I'll be happy to oblige.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


read the above quotes then consider the fact that you
actually expect anyone to believe you after that

They dont have to, and neither do you. People can test it out themselves, and/or work out the numbers for themselves. It plain and simple.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


i refuse to recognize insane BS as proof, read the quotes
on the top of this post again and you'll see what i'm
talking about

Your refusal to accept facts only shows the insanity is you, since your denial is so deep, anything beyond your limited experience seems utterly impossible to you. If you actually get your head out of your arse, and actually read what I wrote, crack open a math or physics text book, and verify the gather rates and numbers. Maybe you'll finally get a clue.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:


actually i'm pretty sure you'd suck, considering your
world of delusion

Like I said any time...play me if you dare.


Quoted from SAS_Soldier:


"Anyway, have fun arguing"


Hehe well dont know about him, but I am! Plus I get to refresh some of my physics basics, it has been awhile since I graduated from Engineering school. Designing AI programs for a living does rot your brain ....JUST a little, ask the AI designers for EE :-). LOL! But hey who said you never use what you learned in school! LOL

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-23-2002 @ 03:11 PM).]

posted 08-23-02 01:10 PM EDT (US)     72 / 88  

Quote:

and how is that? because you read a DM strat as RM one you say i don't know anything, buddy that's your problem not mine

Well, after going back and reading the thread again, it's very obvious you should have known I was talking about RM. Any person with common sense would have known this. And to be fair, you didn't give any DM Strats, all you did was agrue my points.

I'll provide a few quotes to show you I was talking about RM and you should have known it, while it is not obvious you were talking about DM...

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:

Well, most expert RM and DM players play on smaller maps.

Notice the RM and DM part.

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:

I was mainly refering to RM on that particular point but i'll explain why I'm correct anyway...

Notice again the RM.

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:

1. It takes less skill to boom on a larger map, because you're not under pressure within the first 5 minutes of the game or you're not putting as much into your military early(by early I mean minutes 3-5) because an inf rush would likley fail on a large map. It takes more skill to rush than boom, and even more skill to rush or be rushed, follow up on it and boom at the same time.

Right there is when you should have known I was talking about RM, any person intellegent about EE would realize this. If that's not enough heres a few more...

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:

Like I said above, even if I still do a rush build, which usually puts your eco behind a tad, which is okay because you do more damage to you enemy with the rush. Say it's a 1 v 1 medium map, I get 3 inf out at 4:45 it takes 2:00 to find and attack the enemy base, by that time he has a tank which means I just wasted 120 food, 120 iron and I'm now behind by a lot economy wise. Now, say it's a tiny map 1 v 1, I get 3 inf out at 4:45 it takes only :45 to find and attack the enemy, he does not have a tank therefore I do major damage to his economy putting him behind.

After that statement, there is no way you should have thought I was talking about DM. We were talking about good players games, now obviously a good player can get more than 3 inf out at the 4:45 mark, but it takes a good player to do so in RM.

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:

Now, lets say on average I can get on a tiny modern
-3 marines at minute 4:15, and be in the enemy base at 5:00.
My enemy, a high-inter on average can only get
-3 marines at minute 5:35 or 1 tank at minute 5:15-20 if he is not attacked before that time.

Come on, after that you thought I was talking about DM?! While we were talking about "good players" games?

And then when I was willing to drop the subject and not have to come back and make you look like a moron...

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:

OMG. Anarchy, let it go man, we misunderstood eachother, leave it at that.

Quoted from Anarchy_Balsac1:

you were calling me stupid, so no

Well since you were unwilling to drop it, look what happens I come back and make you look like the immature unintellegent about EE kid that you are..

Good day, have fun flaming me and making up nonsense


~Soldier


posted 08-23-02 01:19 PM EDT (US)     73 / 88  
Well just for the record, I have been talking about RM play as well, although as I said DM play doesnt change the formula, just what numbers you plug into it. Which I had to covered repeatedly in several posts (regretably).
posted 08-23-02 01:25 PM EDT (US)     74 / 88  
He only reads what you feels like, he ignores the rest villy...notice how many times i've told him about the quote feature and he hasn't responded to that once.

<-----leaves thread forever

~Soldier

posted 08-23-02 01:36 PM EDT (US)     75 / 88  

Quoted from SAS_Soldier:


He only reads what you feels like, he ignores the rest villy

Ya I figured as much, but actually I am getting some good insight, by having to do the calculations which I have always been too lazy to do, so it more benefit to me and anyone else who wanna study the stats on how to improve their gameplay. Like I said I already learned how much more room I had and could still improve from my 30000 resource games. Then in formulating it, It really drove home that basic tenant in RTS games of constant peon production, and that the key factor in improving your economy is increasing and maintaining your peon production rate. As you know, the one trick poney rushers who loses if you defend their rush or the perpetual rooks who never gets a descent econ basically forgets this principal. Although the only thing left for me to do after that last post, is to calculate the theoretical resource upper limit to an RM game. Although the DM result should already give one a rough idea. So ya I probably gotten as much information as I could get out of this thread so..other then to beat a dead horse its kinda pointless to continue.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-23-2002 @ 03:03 PM).]

« Previous Page  1 2 3 4  Next Page »
Empire Earth Heaven » Forums » Strategy Forum » Srategy Forum is Dying
Top
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register
Hop to:    
Empire Earth Heaven | HeavenGames