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Topic Subject: Srategy Forum is Dying
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posted 08-12-02 02:19 AM EDT (US)   
I've notcied lately that the strat forum has become less and less popular. Hardly any posts are being made. Is everyone moving to the general forum or is EE in general getting old and boring.Any comments?

aka

Manfred Von Richtofen II

Replies:
posted 08-20-02 10:58 AM EDT (US)     26 / 88  
wrong again, you never have to deal with massed forces or too many wonders in RM do you? and for that matter you DO need an econ in DM, who said you don't?

Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-20-02 11:19 AM EDT (US)     27 / 88  
Economy is not nearly as delicate in DM (never said it was not needed)...and you must play some crappy players if you never had to deal with large forces in RM..or you never managed to defend a rush sucessfully. As far as wonders, hehe well if you play against my buds in RM Islands map, look out for the library! We advertsize for experts and descent players and when they actually are descent we definitely get into over 100 troops in RM. I actually dont consider my self that good, just an inters level but I still beat most of the competition online.


Actually I just played a 1v1 DM gigantic continental map, bronze to nano, right now between my post. and I beat the cr*p outa this dood, and I havent played EE for at least a month. Want me to post the stat screens?

Beat him in 22 minutes, but it was over in 15 minutes really. I just pump military as fast as I can until I get to tourney mode resource level then switch to do the regular econ thing, and run my 2 sets of persian cavalry mixed with horsemen and 1 set of pikemen, in at 10 minutes (with 100 troops by then)with 153 troops by the end (with 33% of that at home base in reserve and for defence) and have more queued if he didnt resign , found the guy at 15 and he was dead as soon as I arrived and finally gave it up by 22, and I epoched up twice, in half the time the other guy did. 37 citizens in 15 minutes compared to his 15 at that time, he never made it past 19 citizens.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-20-2002 @ 12:48 PM).]

posted 08-20-02 11:45 AM EDT (US)     28 / 88  
There are no "newbie settings". No matter what the settings are, everyone still has an equal advantage. However, in some cases, the game is made more dificult when you have to decide to build on your army, or build on your economy. Single-epoch deathmatches are an example of a game where your decision is made for you - build an army. In a tournament resources game spanning several epochs, finding the balance between military and economy is much, much more difficult, and the more difficult it gets, the more strategy is involved, and thus the more practice it requires to get good at it.

Personally, I think the hardest game to play is a pre-nano tournament deathmatch with twenty citizens per player. When I tell you this, you think I'm retarded. I don't blame you, as it feels very awkward to play. I find that only in these games can speed, decision-making, and strategy be so important. You may think that starting with twenty citizens is "n00b style", but if you are in a deathmatch, planning how to manage this many little guys quickly can be much harder than managing just five. You don't have to agree with this - it's just a really wacky thought from me.

Anyhow, I believe that games where finding a balance between military and economy is really hard and speed and reflexes are important are hard expert-style games. These tournament random-nano games are this kind of game, which is why so many experts play it and it has become the standard for expert matches.

[This message has been edited by introspection (edited 08-20-2002 @ 11:46 AM).]

posted 08-20-02 12:03 PM EDT (US)     29 / 88  
i agree with you introspection for the most part, but when me and people like SAS_soldier, say newbie settings, we mean they are settings favoured by, and are more lenient to newbies. Of course an expert might play those settings, but it probably just for fun, and to have a break from the hardcore no mistake playing required to win on the tightest resource/play mode. Not that a newbie would get much of break from it, cause if an expert was playing with the extra resources, he/she just be able to lay on a big hurt on someone that much quicker, so it really just favours the expert more then anything else.

as far as the case of 20 citizens, DM, pre to nano. I would suggest that you divide your citizen 4 groups of 5, and each build a TC at a resource. So that you can pump out villagers in as many TC's as possible. Epoch up to copper, so that you can start farming, which is the most efficient form of food production in most cases. Then peel of citizens , to build as many stables as you can, start cranking horsemen, about 50. Then epoch up to bronze. Run your horsemen toward the likely location of the enemy using cntrl-move. Then build archer ranges, and pump out as many chartiot archers as u can. The build barracks and pump out as many pikemen, and maybe some swordmen. Depending on what you meet up with, you can just use the awesome horsemen/char archer combo, or bring up the piker/swordmens if necessary, and with draw the horsemen for reserve or defence. Keep pumping troops till you get to tourney low sets, then send your citizens to collect any resources that you found along the way, build military buildings as you move forward. Way point new troops from those to the enemy location, and way point the initial military builds to home for defence and reserves. Build troops and citizens continously, this will allow u to keep the pressure on and epoch up as normal. But by the time you get started on the pikemen you should have found and started on killing your enemy. The key things are to get to copper asap (use that DM resource for the two epoch upgrade and dont wait for or use citizen for those 1st two upgrades cause citizens before copper are exceedingly slow, they are better off making TC's and military buildings), and to build as many TC's as possible.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-20-2002 @ 12:24 PM).]

posted 08-20-02 12:09 PM EDT (US)     30 / 88  

Quote:

i agree with you introspection for the most part, but when me and people like SAS_soldier, say newbie settings, we mean they are settings favoured by, and are more lenient to newbies. Of course an expert might play those settings, but it probably just for fun, and to have a break from the hardcore no mistake playing required to win on the tightest resource/play mode.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself

posted 08-20-02 12:53 PM EDT (US)     31 / 88  
Oh here's a non newbie DM setting, DM on tourney variant, 5 citizens, 8 players, ffa, on TINY map! LOL
posted 08-20-02 06:02 PM EDT (US)     32 / 88  
I tried that once but with 20 citz it wuz heaps fun. Just grab all ya guys and go build heaps of towers. It's pretty sweet

aka

Manfred Von Richtofen II

posted 08-20-02 06:04 PM EDT (US)     33 / 88  
There's a non-newbie RM setting too, and it's Random to Nano, Tourny-Low, lock teams, lock speed, fast speed, tourney varient, 5 citz...for 1 v 1 tiny or small, 2 v 2 small, 3 v 3 and 4 v 4 medium.

All Pure Hosting games use setts like these, and most SRW although some of their games are Pre-Nano.

posted 08-20-02 06:07 PM EDT (US)     34 / 88  
so what defines a newbie then? Someone who has easy game settings or someone who can't play for cr*p in any setts?

aka

Manfred Von Richtofen II

posted 08-20-02 06:39 PM EDT (US)     35 / 88  
I believe a newbie would be defined as somebody new to the game

Yea, I am quite the smart ***.

posted 08-20-02 07:45 PM EDT (US)     36 / 88  
"Economy is not nearly as delicate in DM (never said it was not needed)...and you must play some crappy players if you never had to deal with large forces in RM..or you never managed to defend a rush sucessfully. As far as wonders, hehe well if you play against my buds in RM Islands map, look out for the library! We advertsize for experts and descent players and when they actually are descent we definitely get into over 100 troops in RM. I actually dont consider my self that good, just an inters level but I still beat most of the competition online."

well i meant you don't deal with larges legions from minute 1, and i said you don't deal with AS MANY wonders

and there's no way your gonna convince me the bomber rush is ever a big threat in RM

plus that's another thing, you have to worry about expensive units A LOT LESS in RM(nuke planes, tridents, a DECENT battleship force)

"i agree with you introspection for the most part, but when me and people like SAS_soldier, say newbie settings, we mean they are settings favoured by, and are more lenient to newbies"

favored by maybe, but you can't say leniant since EVERYONE gets the same advantages


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 02:22 AM EDT (US)     37 / 88  
>and there's no way your gonna convince me the bomber rush >is ever a big threat in RM

Well u havent played me and my buds then...cause one of our favorite strategies on island maps, is to race to ww1 and bomb the heck out of people. By the end of the game, we'd guy would have about 20 bombers, and 30+ hordes of hyperions on some rookie who doesnt know what "descent players and experts" on the game title. The other way this happens is if the guy is real good and defended well against our initial invasion force.

>plus that's another thing, you have to worry about >expensive units A LOT LESS in RM(nuke planes, tridents, a >DECENT battleship force)

You kidding me. One of the best strategies is the library and tridents combo, a good player can ream someone with this, and I have been victimized by it once. Except a good player would defend with prophets, and define a decent battleship force? Does 10+ battleship count? I usually have two for the initial attack to cover my invasion, but if he manages to defend, I can routinely seen and respond with 10+ battleships and more frigates.

>favored by maybe, but you can't say leniant since EVERYONE >gets the same advantages

Then you dont understand the game very well. Its lenient not cause everyone gets the same advantage, its lenient cause the extra resources shelters the newbie from mistakes they make.


posted 08-21-02 02:36 AM EDT (US)     38 / 88  
And btw, a lot of the Random epoch, tourney-low expert players don't even like water based maps for the simple reason that microing ships is next to impossible due to their horrible path finding. I'm sure if Sierra had improved that problem in a patch, you'd see more experts playin water maps in addition to the standard plains map.
posted 08-21-02 02:57 AM EDT (US)     39 / 88  
"Well u havent played me and my buds then...cause one of our favorite strategies on island maps, is to race to ww1 and bomb the heck out of people. By the end of the game, we'd guy would have about 20 bombers, and 30+ hordes of hyperions on some rookie who doesnt know what "descent players and experts" on the game title. The other way this happens is if the guy is real good and defended well against our initial invasion force."

yeah 20 bombers, after A LONG TIME

that's not a bomber rush

"You kidding me. One of the best strategies is the library and tridents combo, a good player can ream someone with this, and I have been victimized by it once."

how many resources does that take? think about it no one good in RM is going to let that happen

in the time's he's building that you could have spent the same resources he did on an army and invaded his island

"and define a decent battleship force? Does 10+ battleship count?"

no i'm talking about having the same amount of battleships as other ships

"I usually have two for the initial attack to cover my invasion, but if he manages to defend, I can routinely seen and respond with 10+ battleships and more frigates."

and how many frigates? you can't afford to build massed battleships in RM(you can do so OVER TIME as stated, but not like in DM)

also preists and prophets, while more devastating in RM are a lot more common in DM

"Then you dont understand the game very well. Its lenient not cause everyone gets the same advantage, its lenient cause the extra resources shelters the newbie from mistakes they make."

lmao no you don't understand, they pay for those mistakes in any case no? if they really don't know what they are doing it's gonna hurt them

they don't magically become formadable, you are grasping at straws


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 04:07 AM EDT (US)     40 / 88  
bloody hell stop quoting already

aka

Manfred Von Richtofen II

posted 08-21-02 05:46 AM EDT (US)     41 / 88  
>yeah 20 bombers, after A LONG TIME

I rarely had an RM game even against descent opponents last more then 40 minutes.

>and how many frigates? you can't afford to build massed >battleships in RM

By the time I get 10 or more Battleships, I would have just as many or more frigates. If you have a bad economy you cant afford, but not a problem with a good economy.

>(you can do so OVER TIME as stated, but not like in DM)

The opponent is equally constrained assuming he is equally skilled so just as in DM, you get those mass of ships to contend with. Just at later in the game.

>lmao no you don't understand, they pay for those mistakes
>in any case no? if they really don't know what they are
>doing it's gonna hurt them

i mean mistakes, not cluelessness. and even an expert can make a mistake, thats how experts beats another expert, by exploiting any mistakes someone make, not mistakes made cause the opponent doesnt understand the game fully. its more lenient cause you're not depending on that ONE extra rush unit to make a successful rush, cause you have that extra resource by the more abundant resources. Its more lenient cause those mistakes in not collecting the resource and producing that unit in the critical time, isnt noticed by the player until later (as in he doesnt lose quite as quickly), giving them the illusion they are better then they are.


>they don't magically become formadable, you are grasping >at straws


I said more LENIENT, repeat LENIENT, lets try again to be clear here's the definition of lenient according to the dictionary:

Main Entry: le·nient
Pronunciation: 'lE-nE-&nt, -ny&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin lenient-, leniens, present participle of lenire to soften, soothe, from lenis soft, mild; probably akin to Lithuanian lenas tranquil -- more at LET
Date: 1652
1 : exerting a soothing or easing influence : relieving pain or stress
2 : of mild and tolerant disposition; especially : INDULGENT

I dont see the word formidable, or invincible or anything to that effect in there. KEYWORD: INDULGENT rather sums it up.

The point being, while experts may play those other settings for a chance of pace. It's a lot harder for someone who is used to those more abundant resource settings to adjust to a tigher economy then for someone who is used to a tight economy. The larger resource games to the person who is used to the tight resources essentially boils down to the end game (for DM, although DM's are enother issue not as much a newbie settings issue) or mid game (for the other resource settings) for the expert RM tourney mode player.

no one said they become magically formidable..just they die a minute or two later then they normally would. i think you are the one grasping at straws. since it seems you are constantly either purposely misinterpreting what i am saying or just dont get it, which it seems in many threads seems a habit with you.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 06:22 AM).]

posted 08-21-02 06:41 AM EDT (US)     42 / 88  
"I rarely had an RM game even against descent opponents last more then 40 minutes."

so your saying you get those 20 bombers in their base within 40 minutes? awsome!!!!!!!(20 bombers that fast in RM, who the hell do you think your fooling? that's 4000 gold and 4000 iron)

and try 100 in 3 minutes, not easy to defend against that

"By the time I get 10 or more Battleships, I would have just as many or more frigates. If you have a bad economy you cant afford, but not a problem with a good economy."

but that takes a while

"The opponent is equally constrained assuming he is equally skilled so just as in DM, you get those mass of ships to contend with. Just at later in the game."

yeah exactly, later in the game

DM you have it like that from the start

"i mean mistakes, not cluelessness. and even an expert can make a mistake, thats how experts beats another expert, by exploiting any mistakes someone make, not mistakes made cause the opponent doesnt understand the game fully. its more lenient cause you're not depending on that ONE extra rush unit to make a successful rush, cause you have that extra resource by the more abundant resources. Its more lenient cause those mistakes in not collecting the resource and producing that unit in the critical time, isnt noticed by the player until later (as in he doesnt lose quite as quickly), giving them the illusion they are better then they are."

that sort of applies to DM, just on a larger scale

like missing an entire mine not just putting 5 on it instead of 6

or failing to build a few military buildings(like say you lay out seige factories and tank factories and airports, but forget the 2 temples and get quaked)

large mistakes like that can happen in DM unlike RM because your doing so much so fast, RM your doing a lot fast too but it's all on a smaller scale

and you can more easily lose track of yourself on a larger scale


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 07:03 AM EDT (US)     43 / 88  
>so your saying you get those 20 bombers in their base >within 40 minutes? awsome!!!!!!!(20 bombers that fast in >RM, who the hell do you think your fooling? that's 4000 >gold and 4000 iron)

i usually have gathered at least 10000-15000 food, and 5000 of the other in resources in a typical RM game that last any length of time. my friends routinely gather lots more then that, and thats why I only consider myself inters.

so i dont see how thats impossible to accomplish, in games that start around the imperial age and later cause if earlier you dont get to WW1 usually, 4000 iron and gold in 40 minutes. i often wonder what some people (and i guess they are rooks who thinks they are experts cause they jump into our games and says they are good) are doing during a game, who barely has a military to speak of, and gather like less then half the resources i have according to the stats, I really dont understand why they are that slow. statistically, the gather rate for gold and iron around the industrial age and on is around .26 units/sec. that works out to be 15.6 per minute, or 624 units in 40 minutes, assuming a linear increase in citizens (and thats if you arent a very good player) to 120 citizens to get 60% of pop as citizen, then the integral of that can be assumed to be 624x(120+5)/2 which works out to be 39000 units. Divide by 4.5 ( since usually people get more food, and not so much stone) we get an average of over 8600 units of every resource. This is double what we need for 20 bombers in 40 minutes. This is actually a conservative estimate since most experts can generate citizens faster then linear progression, and i havent factored in garrisoning citizens into TC's or civ bonuses. But we can use those numbers as rarely does anyone play a perfect game.

so maybe the fact that you think gather 4000 gold and iron in 40 minutes is all that awesome speaks more then anything else.


http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=634231
check that link out, you may find it instructive

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 07:51 AM).]

posted 08-21-02 07:46 AM EDT (US)     44 / 88  
yeah that's food, and your not going to just spend all your resources on bombers either(you mentioned 30+ hyperions)

Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 07:49 AM EDT (US)     45 / 88  
read again, thats 8500+ of each resource on average. Double what you need for 20 bombers. plenty for a herd of hyperions at least 20. some people dont resign till the last man, so you get to round out your force with some more hyperions or whatever you wish. So for 30 hyperions, that 6000 food and gold. Totalling 6000 food , 10000 gold and 4000 iron. or 20000 resources in total. But that is barely over half of the resources one should be able to gather in 40 minutes. The other 19000 resources can cover 3-4 epoch upgrades and the 120 citizens, and at least 3 buildings per epoch. Again this is the conservative estimate. You should be able to exceed this.

This is besides the fact that i use a custom civ with iron and gold bonus and cheaper aircrafts and robots, since thats my island optimized late epoch civ that I use that strategy with.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 08:44 AM).]

posted 08-21-02 08:44 AM EDT (US)     46 / 88  
"read again, thats 8500+ of each resource on average. Double what you need for 20 bombers. plenty for a herd of hyperions at least 20. some people dont resign till the last man, so you get to round out your force with some more hyperions or whatever you wish. So for 30 hyperions, that 6000 food and gold. Totalling 6000 food , 10000 gold and 4000 iron. or 20000 resources in total. But that is barely over half of the resources one should be able to gather in 40 minutes. The other 19000 resources can cover 4 epoch upgrades and the 120 citizens, and 5 buildings per epoch."

so your saying you can gather 39000 resources within 40 minutes starting with 5 cits on tournament low? are you talking f11 time or real time?


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 08:45 AM EDT (US)     47 / 88  
yes, 39000 resources in 40 minutes with 5 citizen start and tourney low resource and tourney mode, on the stats chart at the end so that would be f11 time I would assume. Confimed by the gather rate charts from MFO, which shows I should be able to get more then 39000, if I played perfectly.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 08:53 AM).]

posted 08-21-02 08:50 AM EDT (US)     48 / 88  
okay your obviously making that up so that you can be right no matter what

you don't expect anyone to believe that do you? we're not retarded you know


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
posted 08-21-02 09:00 AM EDT (US)     49 / 88  
LOL..ya keep believing that, ok?

Maybe you dont beleive MFO's gathering rate chart, but ask any of the descent RM players or RM clans, about my numbers. hell just play against one, instead of those standard resource in tourney mode games that attracts rooks like flies to <you know what>. I consider myself about the level of the mystic clan, maybe a little better then some of their members, and equal to some of the lower SRW clan members, and when i play with my friends who like i said is better then me on team games against SRW's we win as often as we loose against them, so ask one of them if they can gather 39000 units of resources in 40 minutes. Unless you think all those guys cheat, simply cause YOU cant get those numbers. The numbers are spelled out in plain arithmatic, work out the numbers for youself, so you're just denying facts if you dont believe it. You can pretend its impossible, but we know better, and will always beat perpetual rooks cause of it. Good luck in your gaming, you'll need it! LOL

I am not worried about anyone believing it, cause its fact. I'm more embarassed that after playing EE from the start, I'm still stuck at inters level, and usually manage to average ONLY 30000 units of resources, when I should be geting 39000 easy, instead I only get that when I am having a good game without making mistakes.

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Villy (edited 08-21-2002 @ 11:19 AM).]

posted 08-21-02 11:15 AM EDT (US)     50 / 88  
"Oh and I am not worried about anyone believing it, cause its fact"

then why post that, all your post says is "i'm right your wrong"

yes with 120 cits from the start you can gather 96000 resources in 40 minutes

but that's if you have them from the start, it takes a while to get those 120 cits

the closest to the start you'll ever get 120 cits is 5 minutes(maybe a little more) and that's in DM with 20 cits

and that's if you build 4 setts, garrison everyone and build 15 more cits, 3 more setts, and garrison the 15 and build cits with each new TC and the first one(adjust it a little as you like)

so it takes a little bit to do it just in DM with 20 cits, there's no way in hell you're going to convince anyone that it can be done in tourn low with 5 cits in time to get 39000 resources in the first 40 minutes


Anarchy_Balsac(owner of Anarchy clan in ee)
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