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Topic Subject: Mod update (and new name)
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posted 05-11-05 12:38 PM EDT (US)   
ViE clan one of EE1's most skilled clans have offered our mod for download on their site.

this is the change list from what I know (only age 1-5 have been really looked at so far):

  • All units have had cost changes and stat changes
  • stables are available from epoch 1 with a heavy mounted unit (epoch 1 heavy mounted units cannot be upgraded to veteran/elite status.)
  • starting gold was removed from coffers in low res games
  • enough tech points to research 1 tech at the start of epoch 1
  • warehouses are 50% cheaper
  • house are cheaper
  • the RPS system has had the following changes:
  • Heavy Infantry are more effective against buildings and completely destroy cavalry (spearmen 'now available in epoch 1' have a range of 2 which makes them the best anti cav unit) Heavy Infantry are extremely weak against Light Infantry
  • Heavy Mounted have had thier speed reduced, they are slightly more effective at killing citizens but extremely effective at killing light infantry and ALL siege, Heavy Mounted are to be countered with Heavy infantry (especially spearmen)
  • Light Infantryhave slightly longer range and counter all Heavy infantry and light cavalry (epoch 2) they are extremely weak to Heavy Mounted and not very effective against buildings
  • Light artillery are extremely effective against all infantry but die extremely fast to cavalry and heavy artillery
  • Scouts no longer attack citizens but can attack everything else
  • Citizenshave been given a slightly higher attack
  • Light Cavalry(epoch 2)counter citizens and Heavy infantry but are costly take a long time to build and die extremely fast to light infantry fire
  • Heavy Artillery(epoch 2-15) extremely effective against buildings and light artillery but very ineffective against infantry and die very fast to Heavy Mounted
  • Forts no longer available until epoch 2, they have decreased range and more HP, they are brought down very fast by heavy artillery (as well as rams)
  • outpostscost more and are slightly stronger (very hard to spam towers now)
  • ALL epoch 1-5 UUs have been changed from super units to units that have other advantages such as:
  • Roman UU have a very high attack but low HP they are great for rushing and can destroy a city in very short order (counter with light infantry)
  • American UU now has the ability to heal though it does so at a much slower rate than the city center and it is a power which means it needs to be used carefully (we are working on adding the icon to the unit interface, for now it defaults to healing when you mouse over one of your own units).
  • Mayan UU very cheap very fast to train but also very weak compared to even normal heavy infnatry, they can be massed very easily and work best in numbers (counter with light infantry)
  • gather rates for all resources have been changed to reflect how difficult some resources are to gather compared to others
  • All resources have been made finite, they last about 3-6 epochs

    There are more changes that I will have readily available in the near future.

    We are still working on balancing regional powers, crowns, and leader powers as we speak. We ask for player input on balancing these as there are too many different factors for us to possibly look at by ourselves. we plan on having MANY patches to adjust the various problems that you all will find. later today we will have a patched version of the mod that ViE has which fixes many small unit imbalances and many other small changes.

    We are working hard to deliver an excellent alternate experience. Our goal with these changes is to give defensive players more of a chance against a rusher while not giving them a distinct advantage, to give more power to boomers if they aren't rushed, and to give more power to rushers if they rush a boomer. We don't want the game to have to resort to constant unit production, we want the balance to shift and turn with players as they build units to counter each other. We also want players that are smarter with their economy to have advantages over someone who isn't smart with their economy. We want to add many more variables to the first few minutes of the game, thus the starting tech points. If you are against a roman and fear a rush you can research a defensive tech, if you are a rusher you can research the tech to make your Heavy infantry stringer to help your strategy (we will be looking into nerfing that huge 20% gather rate tech to make it 10%).

    We want to add a lot more options than just the same ole mass unique units and attack, Mokon and I played a game last night where he was Greek and I was America (scout that heals UU) i knew if I tried to raid him I would be slaughtered so instead i trained light infantry with my healing scout and killed his very strong UU. If not for his tech advantage I would have won that game but because he went another avenue with defensive booming as opposed to my all out raid strat he was able to pick himself up and come back for the win. Very good game that lasted to age 5 (our stated end age because 6-15 are yet balanced) with constant fighting and constant excitement. this is what we want in this Mod, i hope you guys want the same.

    future changes will include such things as

  • all epoch 1 techs will be available, only prerequisite will be a city center
  • more units will have special abilities (such as camouflaging itself for the duration of the power)
  • we are also going to be working on balancing out epochs 6-15 soon, we want to hit one era at a time to secure a balanced game from start to finish
  • we are working on giving starting herd animals much more food and increased gather rates to incourage hunting.
  • we are working on changing the AI of the game which will come in a future patch once allother changes are done. this will help the Ai play better with the mod
  • we are working on a way to create more unit lines in the RPS system though now (thanks to calanor) we found that might not be possible
  • we will change all tool tips to reflect the changes
  • we plan on localizing the Mod so all language versions will be able to play with no translation problems. We will be looking for Translators very soon!

    We have much more planned but as for now we are just trying to make the balance more even and a bit more functional.

    We'd like to thank Mad Doc for making probably the most moddable game I've ever played and also for making it so easy to mod. EE2 has some awesome features that are overshadowed by some flaws, me and Mokon started this just to see if we could do it, we are happy that others are interested in what we are doing.

    thanks
    TGE


    [This message has been edited by TheGoodEvil (edited 05-11-2005 @ 08:12 PM).]

  • Replies:
    posted 05-11-05 01:07 PM EDT (US)     1 / 30  
    Yes, just dont mind some things right now, we are hard at work making it balanced so....

    Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
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  • posted 05-11-05 01:17 PM EDT (US)     2 / 30  

    a mod?.......is nice for the effort.

    but..having fan to creat a mod to fix the game? that is just ridiculous. this doesn't look good.......


    Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!
    posted 05-11-05 01:30 PM EDT (US)     3 / 30  
    we aren't trying to fix the game, we are trying to make it play more like we think it should.

    TGE

    posted 05-11-05 01:46 PM EDT (US)     4 / 30  
    finite reasources will likely break the AI, how does it do in skirmish?

    QA Lead, Vivendi Universal Games
    posted 05-11-05 01:58 PM EDT (US)     5 / 30  
    so far it plays like a god LOL but that's only in the first few ages. it plays stronger for sure, we haven't played it to a point where it ran out of res but i guess up until then it plays like it's supposed to not getting stuck in epoch 1. i guess we fixed something when we moved stuff around.

    We will have a few people try to work on Ai if they aren't hard coded too. of course we only really want this Mod for online play.

    TGE

    [This message has been edited by TheGoodEvil (edited 05-11-2005 @ 02:01 PM).]

    posted 05-11-05 03:15 PM EDT (US)     6 / 30  
    What I dont understand is why you like infinite resources?
    The infinite thing was one of the best things I liked about ee you could play through every epoch till one player had the better RPS group of units .................
    I don't like that games have to finish because they run out of resources -.-
    posted 05-11-05 03:39 PM EDT (US)     7 / 30  

    Quote:

    What I dont understand is why you like infinite resources?
    The infinite thing was one of the best things I liked about ee you could play through every epoch till one player had the better RPS group of units .................
    I don't like that games have to finish because they run out of resources -.-

    U dont die just cause u run out of res... u die because u ddidnt take territory and claim new resources or because u didnt build a market place...... finite res add more strat

    Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
  • To check out my Age of Empires III Strategy Guide click here!
  • The price of my guide has been reduced! Check it out!
  • New TWC Recorded Games Posted on my Media Page!
  • posted 05-11-05 03:46 PM EDT (US)     8 / 30  
    The way we set up the finite res is you will NOT run out of res before the end of the game. there are more than plenty of resources to last the entire game. you will just have to claim them.

    Trust me we are balancing this to last the entire length of the game, if you do run out of resources there is always the market and trade, it also adds meaning to some powers like black market and the far east market power ( for get the name)

    TGE

    posted 05-11-05 03:59 PM EDT (US)     9 / 30  
    WH_demoneyekyo: Nothing wrong with a mod. Lots of games have them, and usually it allows the hardcore players to fine tune the game specifically to their liking. It also means they don't need to wait for a patch that may or may not come.

    It's possible Mad Doc did not have the manpower and time to fine tune everything, so the next best thing is to release the tools to mod the game. Paradox creates games that are moddable, and the community generally creates some awesome mods that end up being better than the original game.

    In other words, don't knock it 'til ya try it. Besides, who's to say Mad Doc isn't working on a patch right now?

    posted 05-11-05 04:12 PM EDT (US)     10 / 30  
    like i said we aren't trying to "patch" the game... there is a different mod group that is making a balance patch we are simply making EE2 more of a game for us. If you guys want to test it out we'll be more than happy to let you all have a version of it later today.

    TGE

    posted 05-11-05 04:12 PM EDT (US)     11 / 30  
    well, i like mod, but not when the mod is ment for competitive play. since its gonna be hard finding someone with the mod (since most player will not have the mod). don't wanna spend like an hr or more just to find a "good game"


    this kinda mod is very differ, since he changes lots of stuff, which will changes gameplay dramatically.

    edit- not saying this is a bad thing..but what if mad doc have no intention of putting some of these stuff from the mod to future patch? then we would ahve a problem.

    thing such as turry, league...it will not be based on mod(extremly unlikely anyway).


    Stop spamming! No one care about ur damn post count!

    [This message has been edited by WH_demoneyekyo (edited 05-11-2005 @ 04:17 PM).]

    posted 05-11-05 04:16 PM EDT (US)     12 / 30  
    well we plan on having the best EE2 players test it, we have ViE clan doing a wonderful job on helping us so far, we will encourage any and everyone to participate and it will in no way effect the game.

    you can remove the mod just as easy as you put it in. The gameplay has changed dramtically, like right now hunting is so much better than any other food gathering it's exciting

    TGE

    posted 05-11-05 05:07 PM EDT (US)     13 / 30  
    It's here!

    http://ee.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=1383

    test it out let us know what you think!

    TGE

    posted 05-11-05 08:13 PM EDT (US)     14 / 30  
    posted 05-11-05 10:11 PM EDT (US)     15 / 30  
    daaaang, i just play a game with the v16 mode and let me tell you that it makes a lot of difference in the game, now instead of having dumb citizens i have smart citizens xD lol, i like that UU no longer are overpowered this is going to put more fun into the game, Im gonna go tell my clan mates this because they were getting dissapointed about the game too, anyways special thanks to the people that are working in making this game better.
    posted 05-11-05 10:12 PM EDT (US)     16 / 30  
    thanx, if u would like to help us online find our games and join in, we need as much help as we can get

    Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
  • To check out my Age of Empires III Strategy Guide click here!
  • The price of my guide has been reduced! Check it out!
  • New TWC Recorded Games Posted on my Media Page!
  • posted 05-12-05 07:30 AM EDT (US)     17 / 30  
    Well I can't get the mp to work so I can only play vs ai.

    But I launched a game using your v16 and some of the stuff posted above were not working properly.

    Like Advancing to epoch 2 now takes a whooping 50 tech pts. I don't receive free tech pts for one tech like stated above.

    I don't like the whole cavalry being made available in Epoch1. I mean too much of the game is in Epoch 1 already, I dunno about mp but vs AI I have to get a small army up asap as there is nothing else to defend with. Cities are pathetic without a garrison but with 5 cits you get 7.5 damage vs a HI and 21 damage vs LI/priests and I think HC too. Giving the cities this kind of defense while needed to defend a rush screws over the whole capture aspect of cities. Capturing cities takes a long time and being able to garrison/target enemy LI and jack them up makes it so that a would-be capturer has to keep their LI far away from the city(reminds ya of RON, hehe) So LI and cav can't capture cities making a capture army have to consist of a lot of HI. But as for rushing, one HI can do about 25 pts of damage to a city center which has like 5k hp so thats 200 hits. Put in 6 HI (that good for a rush?) and thats 33 'cluster hits'

    I can't really comment fully on your RPS(whatever that means) system yet. The makers put in 2 forms of HI which is implemented weird, but something in me tells me that they had some sort of plan. You guys put in spearmen as a anti-cav unit but less hp/attack than and they cost about 40 res cheaper. I dunno, what role does the maceman have now? I dunno, I can't really talk anymore because all I get to play is the absolutely retarded AI, I mean it's bad, really bad. Ya know of all the AI stuff, I have never seen a 'real attack' made by the AI. All they do is rush build(weee building a fort in 5 seconds with 30 cits) your borders and have towers/forts wear you down in Epoch1. And my last few games the AI never made it out of epoch1( I don't know if it would've mattered) No offense but your new RPS system almost mirrors RoNs and I'd like to have some differences(because I love ron and it makes me want to play mp ron but then I remember that mp is dead)

    posted 05-12-05 07:48 AM EDT (US)     18 / 30  

    Quote:

    I can't really comment fully on your RPS(whatever that means)

    Rock-Paper-Scissors, in other words the counters system.


    My Karma ran over my Dogma

    AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

    posted 05-12-05 07:50 AM EDT (US)     19 / 30  
    Just tried a fast Spearman/Spahi rush and boy is that unstoppable. Spahi vs spearman 1v1 was pretty even, but you micro the spahi to gank any bowmen made and the quick to build and cheap spearman take out any building or cav.

    Bout 6 spearman hitting the ai expansion city at 3:45ish, and 2xspahis queued in construction. I only built one rax and didn't manage my res correctly so if I planned it out..... man a rush would be nasty. Of course the AI plays like an idiot and doesn't garrison cits in their 'new' city center. Although rushing is weird in this game as taking a city center is no where near as devastating as it was in RoN(and no timers either) I just have the HI start desotrying the city while the HC just murder cits, I mean 2 hits from a HC and bam dead cit.

    I think I'm at the point wheer I'm saying 'screw it I'll go reinstall ron and see if anyone is alive in the mp lobbies' or maybe finally buy AoM or WC3. Gotta do something while waiting for AoE3. I would wait for the new RoN, but the announcemt of the new ron made me feel sick and depressed that no one in the gaming industry can make a satisfying strategy game anymore.

    posted 05-12-05 08:12 AM EDT (US)     20 / 30  
    Hehe, I thought it meant rock paper scissors, but then I thought to myself, "self. no way, that's too easy it's gotta mean reload point system or something" Comparing the units to rock paper scissors is kinda detrimental. I don't want the game to be one big game of rps. Oh well, lets just say that EE2 has naming issues(you gotta come up with something more interesting than 'mounted infantry' and name the epochs and icbm explosions don't feel like a massive nuclear missile)

    Oh and btw, can you do anything about that 45% instant conversion civ power? It completely screwed over my first rush attempt vs the AI. Talk about an I Win button vs attackers. Maybe 25-30% is better, that way you attack with 10 units, 3 get converted so its now 7v3, maybe you lose 2 more units so now you end up with 1/2 your army. Even so, that's basically killing 1/2 your army with the click of a button. If you are careful you can avoid the instant conversion power, but still you forget about it for one second and boom bye bye 1/2 of your army.

    posted 05-12-05 09:06 AM EDT (US)     21 / 30  
    Yeah, you can't play this vs the AI if you are an MP player. Spearmen are to counter fast cav raiding. Adding cav to epoch 1 is to give every civ a semi-even footing, before it was mass UU and attack. at least now you have to use more than 1 unit class to attack .

    capturing cities works fine when you use HI, we wanted this. We wanted a way to still capture cities and still rush, logical approach was to make HI stronger against buildings and more resistant to building fire.

    as for you microing against the AI... the AI has no concept of Micro on any level, before the mod or after. We only balanced so far for Epochs 1-5 any higher than that and the game plays "wierd".

    As for RoN balance we actually went with AoM+EE1 with a little RoN. The balance system just makes the most sense. if you play against a human (which is how we balanced it) you won't get as easy a win.

    We have actually nerfed the conversion power down to 25%. it's just an overpowered power, we are looking at just changing the regional power with a wonder power because the power is just simply too powerful.

    We want the game to allow rushing (which it didn't/doesn't still because of that meso power), we want it to also allow defensive booming which make a huge difference in game play. When you play against people you have to scout so we kinda forced it by taking away the scout's attack vs citizens only, we are going to put it back if it already wasn't put back.

    as for the 50 tech points to advance it must have been a fluke(lol) becuase we want to encourage more booming, we had techs costing 6 points but western civs were godly with 6 tech points. we'll look into the tech issue.

    most of the changes are based on feed back from our alpha testers, ViE clan (very good EE1/Empires clan), TSC (very good empires/AoM clan), and TWC (very good RoN/WC3 clan). If you rather have the old counter system let me know, i don't know the worst of the 2, ours which forces more than one unit line to win or the old way where you can win with one unit...

    Try out a few other civs online. look for ViE_Ras, TWC_Goofy, TWC_TheGoodEvil, ViE_Sib, TSC_Doc, TSC_Revenger, TSC_Blade, ViE_Ex, TSC_Mokon, or anyone from those clans.

    I'll have an accurate change list as well as changed tooltips in the next patch which will give you a better look at our ideas for the balance mod.

    OH! and spearmen are cheaper but have lower HP and higher range than macemen to counter cav easier. Macemen are notably stronger and a bit more expensive but tear apart buildings with ease. they are also strong against cav but without the extra range are nowhere near as effective as spearmen.

    spearmen die pretty fast to archer fire so a defensive army of spears and archers WILL stop spahi and spears. in fact a defensive army of macemen and spears will kill spahi and spears easily.

    I know it's hard to find a game online right now but soon we'll have enough players to have some real fun everyone so far that has played the mod online has really enjoyed it.

    Thanks!
    TGE

    posted 05-12-05 03:06 PM EDT (US)     22 / 30  
    Fluke, try not attacking the hardest AI for 10 minutes, see if it makes a difference. I know a lot of Game AI can't take being attacked before about 10 minutes, it's because not too many developers know how to rush effectively so whenever we get a hold of the game and pull a mean rush the AI is just awestricken....

    try it
    TGE

    posted 05-13-05 05:32 AM EDT (US)     23 / 30  
    Ya ok I'll try not attacking for the first 10 minutes, but it's very hard to hold back I mean when the AI hits me with like 4-6 priests at like 7 mins I get all pissed off and do a surgical strike against his cits and then its game-set-match good luck trying to rebuild 15+ cits in a reasonable amount of time.

    "spearmen die pretty fast to archer fire so a defensive army of spears and archers WILL stop spahi and spears. in fact a defensive army of macemen and spears will kill spahi and spears easily."

    Ya, that fight will depend on micro and player skill there I guess. Spearmen do have a range of 2 now and that is a fricken huge range. Range in general is a little messed up, a fort can hit almost anything in the screen. But I still say if I do a quick rush with spearmen + spahis, that'll be very hard to defend. The key is to let your spearmen engage his forces, then throw in the spahi to gank the bowman.

    Gonna put in v17, I really would like to play online, but the problem is that my game is fubar. I mean I log on online ok and see the room and buddy list and all, but then when I join a game it says invalid cd key, re-enter it. So I go to return the game, but apparently you can't return a game just for a new cd-key(because you could easily steal cd keys and sell them or hoard them or whatever) And how'd I get the UK version of EE2 in america anyways, I swear, last time I'm ever going to these weird game stores that import a lot of stuff.

    posted 05-13-05 01:17 PM EDT (US)     24 / 30  
    yeah we played around last night online and i'm reasonably sure that the spahi+spears combo is a nonfactor against human players.

    We will be trying to work on the AI as well once we have the whole game balanced.

    We SHOULD be working on the next UU era this weekend, probably in about 2-3 more weeks we will have the mod completed and ready for mass distribution

    TGE

    posted 05-24-05 11:42 AM EDT (US)     25 / 30  
    Impressive Mod.

    I tested it against my new AIP and if you make similar changes to the AIP along with specific changes needed for you mod your going to have a mod that players will obviously enjoy. It should be quite popular I think.

    Not sure who is doing the work on your AIP but a couple of things they will want to keep in mind.

    The AI goes brain dead very very easily so tweak gently.

    Spelling counts - grins MD seemed to forget that

    Test more than once after every change. At least 3 times on various maps. There is a certain randomness built within the game so just because something tested poorly one time does not mean your change did not work. This is the only reason it takes me so long to come out with a new AIP as I can remake any AIP in about 4 to 5 hours. Testing it under all conditions takes the longest time.

    Test with every CIV. VERY IMPORTANT. Laughs, both as you the player and as them the CIV. My biggest blunder.

    Keep in mind that the AI changes throughout the game as the game rolls through the epics. Your AIP will need to reflect those changes which will have a substantial impact in how the AI works and the game plays. Your balance could be totally worthless if the AI is not tweak correctly.

    Good Luck.
    Look forward to see what you guys come up with.

    Wolfgrim



    "Adding intelligence to a AI is like teaching a two year old the difference between a round and a square and you get the same results. Both of you are frustrated by the end of the day." - Wolfgrim 2005
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