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Topic Subject: 1.2 Balance Changes
posted 11-21-05 04:33 PM EDT (US)   
Just for your information, here is a complete list of the balance changes we made for 1.2:

HI build time reduced to 37 from 45.5
LI build time increased to 37 from 32.5
Chinese Song Cannon area damage reduced to 0.5 from 1
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch10 HM to 80 from 100
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch7 LI to 60 from 100
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch9 LI to 60 from 100
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch11 LI to 60 from 100
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch6 HM to 80 from 100
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch8 HM to 80 from 100
Reduced Epoch6 ChineseUU (song cannon) effectiveness vs. Epoch10 HM to 80 from 100

Veteran and Elite bonuses changed for unique units (numerous changes)
Reduced LI effectiveness vs. HM to 25 from 100
Reduced LI effectiveness vs. buildings to 25 from 100
Increased HM effectiveness vs. LI to 250 from 200
Reduced LM effectiveness vs. buildings to 25 from 100
Reduced Epoch8 HA (bombard) effectiveness vs. Epoch7 LI to 60 from 100
Reduced Epoch8 HA (bombard) effectiveness vs. Epoch9 LI to 60 from 100
Reduced Epoch8 HA (bombard) effectiveness vs. Epoch11 LI to 60 from 100
Reduced Epoch8 HA (bombard) effectiveness vs. Epoch6 HM to 80 from 100
Reduced Epoch8 HA (bombard) effectiveness vs. Epoch8 HM to 80 from 100
Reduced Epoch8 HA (bombard) effectiveness vs. Epoch10 HM to 80 from 100
Reduced bombard damage from 110 to 105



Most military civ bonuses reduced to 10% from 25%
Light artillery civ bonus reduced to 20% from 25%
Small changes to Hoplites and Zeroes.
Resource gather rate epoch bonus reduced to 10% from 20%

Doubled the food that can be gathered from medium-food and high-food animals
Citizen gather rate has been reduced to .85 from .95
Fixed a bug where conversion rate for mounted units and artillery was faster than other units

UNIQUE UNIT STAT CHANGES:
American2 damage decreased to 9 from 13
American2 HP increased to 140 from 130
American3 damage decreased to 30 from 40
American3 HP decreased to 290 from 309

Aztec1 damage decreased to 7 from 9
Aztec HP decreased to 85 from 92
Aztec2 damage to decreased to 16 from 17
Aztec2 HP decreased to 180 from 195

Babylonian1 HP decreased to 54 from 69
Babylonian2 damage decreased to 17 from 20
Babylonian2 HP to decreased to 100 from 137
Babylonian3 damage decreased to 10 from 20
Babylonian3 HP decreased to 200 from 205

Chinese1 wood increased to 32 from 25
Chinese1 HP decreased to 60 from 65
Chinese2 food to 159 from 99
Chinese2 gold to 159 from 101
Chinese2 damage to 55 from 15
Chinese2 HP to 115 from 113
Chinese3 food to 99 from 79
Chinese3 gold to 48 from 41
Chinese3 oil to 22 from 15
Chinese3 HP to 135 from 155
Chinese3 damage to 13 from 15

Egyptian1 HP decreased to 115 from 131
Egyptian2 HP decreased to 140 from 176
Egyptian3 damage decreased to 30 from 32
Egyptian3 HP decreased to 170 from

English2 damage to 17 from 18

German1 HP increased to 102 from 95
German1 damage increased to 15 from 13
German2 food increased to 77 from 65
German2 gold increased to 77 from 65
German2 HP increased to 150 from 135
German3 damage decreased to 21 from 43

Greek1 damage decreased to 8 from 9
Greek1 HP decreased to 100 from 118
Greek2 gold increased to 58 from 50
Greek2 food increased to 50 from 45
Greek2 damage increased to 8 from 6
Greek2 HP increased to 120 from 109
Greek3 food increased to 46 from 30
Greek3 gold increased to 45 from 29
Greek3 oil increased to 45 from 35
Greek3 damage to 4 from 2.3
Greek3 range to 9 from 7
Greek3 HP to 230 from 245

Inca1 damage decreased to 8 from 9
Inca3 wood increased to 109 from 97
Inca3 gold increased to 207 from 177
Inca3 oil increased to 176 from 156
Inca3 HP increased to 200 from 173
Inca3 damage increased to 120 from 95

Japanese1 HP decreased to 95 from 99
Japanese1 damage decreased to 8 from 9
Japanese3 wood increased to 70 from 35
Japanese3 gold increased to 135 from 65
Japanese3 oil increased to 95 from 60

Korean1 HP decreased to 110 from 120
Korean2 food to 103 from 51
Korean2 gold to 103 from 55
Korean2 HP increased to 180 from 165
Korean2 damage increased to 36 from 11
Korean3 wood to 27 from 22
Korean3 gold to 35 from 30
Korean3 oil to 68 from 58
Korean3 HP decreased to 165 from 178

Mayan1 damage increased to 10 from 9
Mayan1 HP increased to 75 from 71
Mayan2 damage increased to 30 from 27

Roman1 HP decreased to 83 from 88
Roman2 food increased to 58 from 45
Roman2 gold increased to 58 from 48
Roman3 HP decreased to 190 from 215
Roman3 damage decreased to 9 from 10
Turkish1 HP decreased to 140 from 166
Turkish2 food increased to 58 from 45
Turkish2 gold increased to 51 from 38
Turkish2 damage increased to 16 from 13
Turkish2 HP increased to 150 from 129
HeavyMounted1 Epoch11 damage to 5 from 4
HeavyArtillery Epoch11 HP increased to 140 from 130
HeavyArtillery Epoch11 damage increased to 40 from 32

We also rebalanced every veteran and elite upgrade in the gaming. Instead of a basic 10% bump in HP and damage, units now get either 10%, 5%, or 2.5% based on their playtest effectiveness.

Replies:
posted 11-21-05 06:04 PM EDT (US)     1 / 6  
Thanks for that. I'll stick this and add it to the description for the patch in downoads.

My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

posted 12-05-05 00:45 AM EDT (US)     2 / 6  
Finally, Heavy Mounted and buildings can't be raped anymore by cheap special forces light infantry. Now the boring players will stop doing simple strategies of being inca and other civilizations with special forces light infantry and just spam them like simpletons.
posted 12-19-05 01:02 PM EDT (US)     3 / 6  
herm spahi spamming is still very viable and popular. also, light artillery spamming seems to now be viable and popular.

the biggest problem with this game, imho, is that is does not have good RPS. It should not be possible to effectively field a single unit force (like Spahis only) with good success against anything else, even an army composed of equal or greater numbers of their supposed counters. The beauty of RPS is it forces people to react and revise their strategies mid game in response to what the other guy does. I personally hate games that allow for foolproof build orders to result in guaranteed victory unless the other guy somehow out produces you with more of the same exact kind of units you make. Theoretically, there should be an effective counter for everything. If you know in advance what the other guy is going to do, you should be able to counter it.

One suggestion for further patching or the expac is make villagers fight better. Games where one Spahi comes very early and just kills everything are ridiculous.

posted 12-19-05 05:51 PM EDT (US)     4 / 6  
People are looking at the RPS system the wrong way. People think, why the hell are these counters not owning those units?!

My advice is train up a army consisting of mostly ALL unit types. Not just spamming your opponents counters.

Why?

Lets say your opponent is doing the good old technique that is Spahi spam. You have a balanced army. What happens?

The Spahi's stop to attack your Infantry Melee units and Horsemen. This means the Artillery units and long range infantry can hail down supporting fire on the Spahi's without any damage being inflicted on them. The Spahi's shouldn't last too long under those conditions.

My proof that this works? I held off 3 Spahi attacks with a smaller more balanced army online. Two of them came at exactly the same time from two different opponents.

posted 12-20-05 05:44 PM EDT (US)     5 / 6  
thanks for chiming in Jimmy. you are describing the tried and true tactic known as a meat shield. Putting strong melee units up front, and allowing the ranged units to attack from behind it, preferably at some choke point.

of course, spahi do not only clash with your nicely designed army on the front line and cooperate by attacking the up front meat shield units only. especially if you are trying to attack the other guy's base, the spahi can also zoom around the melee units and attack the ranged units first in most circumstances, or can zoom past the whole army and wipe out buildings and civilians deep in your territory instead.

I don't know how much testing you have done but basically my experience in many online games against players of widely varying skills is that the only thing that can effectively fight off a roughly equal sized force of spahis is a large enough force of light artillery. I think the meat shield approach may have some merit or usefulness against spahis at least at choke points, but I suspect you are better off just getting a critical mass of light artillery going. once you have enough of them, they basically become untouchable, so long as you are smart and keep them stationary when they are being attacked and dont let them be distracted by moving or firing on buildings while being attacked.

towers do well against spahis since the patch (thank God). towers really seem to be the only effective defense against spahi spammers, at least early in the game. once they get enough spahis, the towers won't do enough.

I know of no unit combination that works well against massed spahis except for massed light artillery or more spahis. worse, spahis are also overly effective in smaller numbers (against roughly equal sized forces), whereas light artillery are not nearly as effective in small numbers (against roughly equal sized forces). One spahi can easily kill three (maybe more) of its supposed counter (heavy infantry?), really three of anything other than maybe light artillery, which is silly. so I think spahi are overpowered whereas light artillery are not because it is not too easy to get enough light artillery to reach critical mass. If one spahi gets to your base before you have any military or towers created, it can wipe out your whole base no problem. by the time you squeeze out some military there are more spahi there easily wiping them out. I think fighting with villagers should be viable against one measly unit, but it isn't.

If you start in age one there seems to be no real defense against an early spahi rush except to get your own spahis faster because towers don't shoot until you research the tech for that. You see a lot of games online where Turks are banned because people don't appreciate being wiped out in the first minute and having no way to defend other than to produce spahis faster than the other guy. The solution is probably both to nerf spahis a little and to beef up villager attack abilities a lot.

Another solution would possibly be to let military units garrison in the town center. Then they could pop in and heal and pop out and be more effective defensively in those desperate situations. putting palisades around an archer (or other ranged unit or priest) to make a sort of tower might theoretically work too. I'll have to try that some time. not sure how quickly spahi mow through palisades but probably too quickly. far eastern civs get that invulnerable palisades power that could help I guess. hmmm. anyway, you should not be forced to do something like that under the mere threat of a single spahi showing up very early. you should just be able to produce one or more of the counter unit and that should be enough to fight off equal or smaller sized (smaller from a resource and time (or villager second) perspective, not exact equal numbers) forces of spahis.

If the RPS worked properly, people would be forced to use mixed forces and that would be a good thing. As it stands, the reason you see so many people spam sigle unit type forces is not because they are stupid or are unaware of tactics like the meat shield; it is because single unit type forces in this game are highly effective (too much so imho). also, even where mixed forces would theoretically be useful, it is easier and more efficient to build only one building type and to focus your resources on upgrading only one unit type and focus your gathering on the resources needed for creating that one unit type. You just can't produce as upgraded or as large a mixed force as a single unit force in the same amount of time, so the mixed force needs (or at least the proper counters need) to be decidedly superior or people will just spam single unit type forces.

single unit type armies should not be the best approach in a game with good RPS. I guess there is room in the world for all kinds of RTS games, but in general I think all of them should attempt to have good RPS and this one fails in that department more than most RTS games I have played and I have played most of the major RTS games made for the past 10 years. don't get me wrong, I still love the game, I just wish it had better RPS and I think it would be much better if it did.

posted 01-01-06 11:54 PM EDT (US)     6 / 6  
Yeah, unforunately with Light Infantry weakened significantly and reasonably, now the Heavy Mounted has an uber advantage in Epoch 1. They are quick enough to build and move really quickly to their target. Light Arterilly requires stone to build the factory and then it is quite more expensive. So, you can't really prepare against Heavy Mounted quick enough. It's really hard to work against.

Also the special forces arterilly for Chinese and Mayan in epoch 6-10 seems to be overpowered, mostly in fast paced games. So is the Inca Thunder Cannon in Epoch 11-15, although Air can easily beat it as long as there is no anti-air.

So, yeah the RPS system does not really work well in Empire Earth 2. I was fighing against a guy using tons of Spahis and I used light arterilly and calvary, but he was still giving me a really really rough time. It should have been a whole lot easier since I used both types of counters but it was not working effectively enough.

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